Upbeat intro music
Rebecca Archer
Welcome to The Remarkables – Grant Thornton’s podcast series dedicated to sharing extraordinary stories of individuals who are making significant contributions to their communities. These people pave the way for a brighter future and motivate everyone to make a positive impact.
Today’s guest is Sharon Xabregas – Founder of Sign Hear – an organisation providing support to families and individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing. Sign Hear partners with other businesses helping create inclusive workplaces for employees who are faced with difficulty hearing.
Growing up deaf, Sharon experienced lack of support and awareness in the workforce, and this was the catalyst for her to create change. Welcome Sharon and thank you for coming on the show!
Sharon Xabregas
It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me here today.
Rebecca Archer
We love to begin each episode by asking all of our guests what they're reading, listening to or watching at the moment.
Sharon Xabregas
Well, I do watch Netflix and watch The Office – the American Office. I love it because there's a lot of comedy; it's easy to watch; it's perfect to watch after a stressful day. I've also finished watching Utopia and I really loved Utopia. Being in the NDIS industry and navigating all the red tape, it's just so spot on. So, I just think it's quite funny.
Rebecca Archer
All right, so let's get into it. What has been your experience growing up as a deaf person here in Australia?
Sharon Xabregas
My family… I've got a brother and a sister. So, my sister's ten years older and my brother is nine years older than me. So, my brother's profoundly deaf as well. He's actually nonverbal, so he only communicates through Auslan. My family were in tears when they found out that I was deaf, so there was lots of emotions when they found out that I was deaf.
My brother's reaction was quite different. He was running through the house so excited and jumping up and down because he was just thrilled to have a deaf sister. I was actually nonverbal until the age of five. So, prior to five, I was only signing and I actually grew up thinking that everyone knew sign language.
So, I was actually quite frustrated growing up because I would constantly communicate with people in sign language, and I would actually be really frustrated why they wouldn't respond to me, and it wasn't until later, as I got older, I realised actually sign language is not something that most people have, and so, there was that a bit of isolation and just feeling different once I realised that there was something different about me.
Also, kids at school were a little bit scared of me because I had hearing aids and there was a lot of talk around AIDS when I was in school and so kids would come up to me and ask me if I had AIDS and I thought they were talking about my hearing aids, so I would just say yes. So, there was a lot of isolation and confusion and bullying. So, a lot of lack of awareness growing up.
Rebecca Archer
How does that translate into adulthood for you?
Sharon Xabregas
Because of the struggles I had growing up, it just gave me a lot of… it gave me thick skin and it just gave me a lot of determination that I really wanted to make workplaces more inclusive and just wanting to empower the deaf community to not just survive but to thrive and also just learning to adapt between the deaf world and the hearing world is what we call it fostering those, the bridges in between the communities.
I guess also having a lot of resilience has just taught me, you know, having a lot of patience explaining things to people. I often get asked how I can drive and it's a question I get asked almost daily, and I think that the main confusion that people have is how do you hear when you're driving? And my response to that is, well, how do you hear when your music is playing? And so, that's when people's reactions are like, oh, yeah, you know, using your eyes.
Rebecca Archer
I wonder if you can talk about some of the challenges that are faced by people in the Auslan community?
Sharon Xabregas
I think that there's a lot of misconceptions out there around what deaf can do and a lot of people just don't always see past the disability and that can be really frustrating. Assuming that they don't want an Auslan interpreter or assuming that they can't read – we're all so different – and yeah, so I often… because I speak well… quite often people don't think I need an Auslan interpreter and I can get by, but I get concentration, fatigue and I get really exhausted at the end of the day.
So, the best way to explain it for me, it's like watching a black and white TV and having that extra colour… you can still see the TV in black and white, but then when you add colour it just makes it so much more enjoyable and it's not so hard to try and identify the objects and, you know, the shapes of things and so, having an Auslan interpreter there, it just, you know, complements everything. It gives me that tone and that full understanding of the conversation.
Rebecca Archer
What's the best way for the hearing community to support and engage with the Auslan community?
Sharon Xabregas
I think just taking the time to learn Auslan; it shows respect and commitment to inclusion. Even just basic signs like hi, how are you? Or just the Alphabet – it would make such a difference, but I think really ultimately, it's just attitude and empathy, just having empathy for people in the deaf community and just respecting the language.
Quite often people come up and they ask me for the swear words and yes, it can be quite funny, but when they're only learning the swear words to communicate in a deaf community, it can be kind of frustrating. I think just being patient and engaging with deaf professionals. So, if there's an opportunity to engage with a deaf professional, whether it might be getting them to check a website to make it more accessible or if they're doing an ad or a movie, having them engage with a deaf professional, it shows that they're respecting the language and the culture.
Rebecca Archer
Given that's a great way to introduce a discussion about your business, could you tell us a bit more about Sign Hear?
Sharon Xabregas
Sign Hear is a deaf-owned business that I started up. I wanted to create a deaf-owned business to empower the deaf and hard of hearing communities, and I was focused on Auslan teaching and deaf awareness and employment support, and it was just myself, through COVID lockdown, it actually boomed, which was quite surprising.
I think the Auslan interpreters on the news really put me and us on the map. So, people would be watching the interpreters on the news and started reaching out wanting to learn a language. So, there was a lot of people that we started teaching online during the COVID lockdown who wanted to learn Auslan. So, that was really, really amazing for me, but it was also a little bit – it was a confusing time as well because there were so many businesses who were actually going under and people were struggling, and so, it was awful for, for some businesses as well. So, it was really surprising how much it grew through the COVID lockdown, and also, that's when I started an employment team as well.
So, I actually have a background in employment services. So, I’ve worked in different disability employment service providers, and so through the COVID lockdown, a lot of deaf people lost jobs because of the mask and being mandatory, they couldn't lip read, and so, a lot of workplaces were forcing their staff to wear a mask as well as customers that were coming in, and so that was creating a lot of problems for the deaf community, and so that's when I had to start advocating to workplaces to make it more inclusive, and, yeah, it was a strange time and, yeah, it just started to grow from there.
Rebecca Archer
How do you actually deliver your service?
Sharon Xabregas
So, we deliver a lot of our services online. So, we do Auslan teaching online and also in the community as well. Our employment services are all online, and the reason for that was because we were able to connect with the deaf community all around Australia, and not just New South Wales, because there's such a big gap in the deaf community for employers to be supported in their workplace if they've hired someone who's deaf.
We also have a team who are either deaf or hard of hearing that provide services as well as those who are hearing. So, we have half our team who are deaf, and half of our team who are hearing and we all work together to tailor services and support, and we do a lot of community engagement in the community with schools and childcare centers. So, I kind of see us as a one-stop-shop, really, for anything deaf related. I think the only thing we don't really do is support work.
Rebecca Archer
Quite a lot of scope, it sounds like across the board. How many people do you have working with you?
Sharon Xabregas
We now have 14 staff, so to have started in 2018 with just myself, and that was six years ago, to having 14 staff, it feels like such an achievement, and to be able to employ deaf people is just, it's a wonderful dream of mine. So, to be living it, it's really, really special.
Rebecca Archer
Now, in August 2023, the New South Wales Government released its first Auslan syllabus for primary and secondary students, giving them the opportunity to experience and learn a valuable communication skill. Would you like to see Auslan integrated into the Australian curriculum more broadly from here?
Sharon Xabregas
I would love that. I was very, very excited when they had released that. It's Australian and why not be learning a language that we all use in this country? And I think it will really help bridge that gap between the deaf and hearing communities. It just gives us so much inclusivity and awareness and it's just such a beautiful language to learn.
I know that TAFE New South Wales have recently released a TAE course, which is specifically for the deaf cohort, because there is a shortage of deaf teachers out there, and I think one of the challenges that comes with wanting to release the Auslan curriculum out in the community is there is a small number of deaf teachers out there and most of the deaf community who want to teach don't have that qualification, and if they want to become teachers, then there's that added barrier of all the support they need to actually study the qualifications. So, I think the only – and the main – concern that the deaf community have, is that if there is no support for the deaf community to be in a teaching field, then that means the hearing community are taking over those jobs, and then the concern that comes with that is wanting to unintentionally exclude deaf people who bring their lived experience and their cultural insight.
So, I think that's probably the concern that a lot of people in the deaf community have at the moment. So, it's a bit of a trying to find that balance.
Rebecca Archer
And beyond schools, if an adult would like to go and learn Auslan, is that an easy thing to do? Is it accessible for someone in the hearing community to decide, well, I'd like to go and learn how to sign?
Sharon Xabregas
Good question. TAFE NSW and different tapes around the country do provide Auslan. Again, it depends if they have a deaf teacher that can actually teach it. If you're bilingual, it's actually not as hard. The feedback that I have gotten from hearing people have learned the language is that being bilingual, it kind of helps them to understand Auslan a little bit more because Auslan has its own grammar and own structure as well.
So, for example, when you say, ‘I am going to the shop’, in Auslan it's, ‘shop, I go.’ So, it's changed quite a bit. The grammar is quite different, whereas some other languages already have that back to front way of communicating, so they have a better understanding of how to pick up Auslan, but it varies for different people. I think the main thing is if you don't use it, you lose it, and being in the deaf community and immersing yourself in the deaf community, it really does help to build your skill and your confidence.
Rebecca Archer
And how crucial do you think it is for various forms of media to showcase the use of Auslan? You mentioned the interpreters that we were seeing during COVID-19 press conferences and announcements, but beyond that, are we seeing more examples of Auslan being used and showcased?
Sharon Xabregas
We definitely can be better. We can be better. I see a lot of media attention on Auslan interpreters, and I'm sure you've seen recently Auslan interpreters going viral for interpreting at concerts, and, you know, as great as that is, it tells me that it's still unique; it's still something that's not seen enough of because people are still talking about it, and so that tells me that it needs to be so normal that people don't think twice.
Why isn't there an Auslan interpreter at that event? Why isn't there an Auslan interpreter at that job interview? So, I guess it would be great to see more of that in the community and also representation, really. It really matters. I was speaking at a panel for Driving Change with Bus Stop Films recently, and their focus was talking about representation on an off screen, and I was actually interviewing Sofya Gollan, who was the first deaf person who was on Play School, and I watched her growing up, and I remember seeing her on screen thinking to myself, wow, a deaf person can actually do this?
And so, it was actually quite a shock to me because in the deaf community, it's quite normal to be told you can't do that type of job because you're deaf. For example, you can't be a police officer because you're deaf. You can't be a pilot because you're deaf. So, there's lots of different roles that deaf community can't do, and so, when we do see someone who is deaf in a role, we really do stand up and take notice, and it gives us inspiration, but not just for us in the deaf community, but parents who might have children who are deaf. When they see someone in a leadership role, like myself running a business, that they have hope for their kids as well; I think it just breaks that stigma.
Rebecca Archer
I wanted to also ask you whether or not you're sort of feeling positive about the changes that are being created and that are happening will lead to a more inclusive community in the future. Do you think that we've got a long way to go, or is it a good thing that we're already taking some steps? How would you judge it?
Sharon Xabregas
I do think that we are on the right track. I think there is more effort out there in the community. People who I see as allies who are not deaf but are invested in wanting to create change and being an advocate for not just the deaf community, but also those with disabilities, and I think we are learning to have more empathy for others, and, you know, having deaf awareness training, I'm seeing so much more deaf awareness training in workplaces.
So, we're often getting emails now from different organisations who just want to learn more about the deaf community. I actually did a few days of deaf awareness training at a school this week, and they had a challenge week where they had someone who taught them wheelchair basketball, and they did a sport with a blind person and they had me teaching deaf awareness training, and that was just because they wanted to understand more about those with lived experience having a disability. We're definitely seeing more of it.
I think we just need to see more representation out there in different fields, but the discrimination, the barriers are still there as well. So, we just had a deaf person go for a job interview this week, and the Auslan interpreter, who was actually interpreting for the deaf person, was actually quite upset and reached out to us almost for counseling because they were quite surprised at how discriminating the interview was for the deaf person, and I guess because we have thick skin as a deaf person, we just keep moving forward until we find that amazing workplace. But it is still there, it's still around, and we need more allies and people who can advocate on our behalf to stand up and say, why can't we make those changes?
Rebecca Archer
Are you able to speak about any initiatives that Signher is going to be involved with in the future or anything exciting that you're working on right at the moment?
Sharon Xabregas
We do have a project that we are working on, and we can't say too much about it because we're hoping to launch it in a new year, but we're actually working with a young girl on a project who is deaf, and it is a project that's never been done before in the country, and so, we are really excited to see this get released.
It's been a big community effort to make this happen, but we do deaf awareness training, so we're always out in the community providing deaf awareness training, and we are starting to get noticed by our local MPs and just recently had recognition from the New South Wales Parliament for the work that we do, and we have applied for a tender next year to possibly work in the disability employment services space.
So, we are hoping that we will be able to provide that specifically for the deaf and hard of hearing communities, and we're also starting our school leaver employment program, which will be focused on working with children who are deaf and hard of hearing who are not quite yet ready for work, but they need some guidance before they can get into work. We find that a lot of children who are deaf and hard of hearing, they miss a lot of discussions that happen in the community.
For example, a lot of them don't understand that they can't use their phone at work, and those social norms for example, how to approach their employer about a pay rise. So, as Auslan grammar is so blunt, it is quite normal for a deaf person to just approach their employer and say, I need more money, I want to pay rise. So, having to teach them the social norms and teaching them the hearing world basically and what's acceptable and what's not in the hearing community.
Rebecca Archer
That context is amazing. It's something that I think a lot of people would never have thought about, and as we're discussing this, I'm thinking, what advice would you have for businesses about taking on an employee who is hearing impaired or deaf or has maybe just, you know, an issue with being a bit hard of hearing? We probably assume it's very, very difficult, but actually it may not be the case that it is this huge challenge for business. What are some tips you think could be useful for them?
Sharon Xabregas
I think just knowing that there is support out there for employers who are considering hiring someone who's deaf or hard of hearing. There is employment assistance funding that can be provided to employers.
So, I think the biggest question a lot of employers say is I can't afford to cover Auslan interpreters, how do I make the equipment work for a deaf person? And so, there's actually government funding that is given to employers. So, it's as simple as applying a one-page form or going online to complete a questionnaire. And it's usually a 24-to-48-hour turnaround and they are given funding to support their needs.
So, this is where we come in and guide them and walk them through, through that process because they just don't know where to start and we just encourage them to look at technology. Now that we've had COVID lockdown, a lot of people are very comfortable using teams, using chat. A lot of the deaf community use National Relay Service online and so they can chat to, to someone who can make phone calls on their behalf.
So, my approach is it's fixable, we can fix this. It's about having an open mind and being open to trying something new, and what might work for one deaf person might not work for another. So, it's, it's important to keep an open mind. For someone like me, my needs at work is very different to someone else. So, I also asking those questions, giving that person who is deaf or hard of hearing a chance to share what they would like to have in the workplace because quite often they already know what they need to have to be able to do their job well, and a lot of the times they get nervous about rocking the boat, and they don't like to ask for any extra support because they don't want to be seen as a troublemaker.
Rebecca Archer
And just before we finish up, Sharon, I wonder if you would mind sharing the most remarkable advice that you have ever received?
Sharon Xabregas
That's a really tough question, I think, for me is breaking the mould and paving the way for the next generation. I have always been encouraged to be the change that you want to see, and, you know, if I want employers to hire a deaf person, well, I have to have deaf people working for me and for us to lead by example and not to be afraid.
You know, sometimes being scared of change, which often happens for someone who is deaf, I have had a lot of people who have said to me, oh, maybe it's better for you to just work for someone and just get paid nine to five. You know, being deaf and being female, it's so hard to start up your own business, and a lot of people thought I just had a hobby working from home, and so, yeah, I think, you know, just breaking the mold and, you know, reminding myself that not to do it alone, and so people reminding me, you know, you don't have to do this on your own. There's a community of support out there. So, lots of different advice, and I kind of just picked out what has really helped me because it's been such a unique journey for me.
Rebecca Archer
Thank you so much. That is just amazing, and I’m so impressed and inspired by your journey, and I'm sure everyone who's listening will be as well. If our listeners are wanting to follow your journey, hear more about what it is that you do and perhaps how Sign Hear could help them. What should they do? How should they follow you? How should they get in touch with you? What are the best avenues to do that?
Sharon Xabregas
Well, we love Internet; we love technology. So, we have a Facebook page called Sign Hear, and we have an Instagram page also called Sign Hear. So, you can check us out on those different platforms and send us a DM through those platforms, or you can email us at info@signhear.com.au and a lot of people end up spelling it wrong and they say H E R E. It's actually H E A R as in hearing. So, I think they're the places to reach out to us, and also feel free to check out our website. We have a website, which is signhear.com.au as well.
Rebecca Archer
If you enjoyed this podcast and want to hear more incredible stories, be sure to follow and subscribe to The Remarkables podcast by Grant Thornton Australia on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. We’d love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future guests. I’m Rebecca Archer – thanks for tuning in.
Upbeat outro music
